One of the many, many matters voters will be asked to weigh in on next month is a mill levy for Denver Public Schools. A mill levy is, in simple terms, a property tax increase to help fund programs and other non-capital enhancements to the school district. This year, DPS is asking voters to approve a mill of $43.9 million. The lion’s share of that money will be going to increased pay for all district employees.
Some quick basic facts:Â
- $25.8 million of that total will go to raises for all employees, which amounts to $1,750 per full-time employee, prorated for part-time employees.
- Another $4.9 million goes to mental health and special education support.
- $4 million goes to career and technical education in high-demand fields.
- $9.3 million goes to charter school share required by state law.
DPS puts the cost at $11.50 per $100,000 of home value. For the median $624,800 home, that’s about $72 a year or $6 a month.
It’s worth noting that the DPS share of a typical home’s tax bill has already gone up nearly 54% since 2020, from $1,480 to a projected $2,276 in 2026. That’s mostly because home values have risen. This would be the district’s eighth tax increase since 1988.
Denver voters have a history of being generous, and there’s no reason to expect differently this year. Mill levies and bond issues for Denver Public Schools typically pass by wide margins. This year, however, there are a few extenuating circumstances:
- The affordability question that’s plaguing the entire country, and in particular cities like Denver.
- The ongoing dysfunction and chaos on the Denver school board and in the district administration.
While this may shake voters’ confidence, in some ways, it’s very doubtful that it will result in any kind of turndown of this mill levy.
We asked Denver Classroom Teachers Association President Rob Gould, and Vernon Jones, a community advocate and executive director of FaithBridge who was on the mill levy committee, onto the show to discuss the mill levy, reasons voters should approve it, and to answer some questions about why maybe some voters should be skeptical that it’s a good idea.
Full transcript of season 2, episode 27
Alan Gottlieb: [00:00:00] Hi, everybody, and welcome to the Boardhawk Podcast once again. Today, we have two distinguished guests. We have Rob Gould, who is the president of the Denver Classroom Teachers Association, and Vernon Jones, who is the executive director of FaithBridge, and just a longtime education advocate and advocate for the children of Denver. So glad to have them both on. And the main topic of today’s conversation is the upcoming mill levy, $43.9 million, that Denver voters are going to ask to approve on Election Day, which is… Now, I don’t know the date. It’s what, November 3rd? Is that right? Yes. It’s Tuesday, November 3rd. So it’s coming right up, and you all have your ballots already, so get them in before you get harassed to death by people spamming your email and text messages because you haven’t voted yet. So I’m gonna read a little bit about the mill levy just to save some time here, and then we’ll get into talking to Rob and Vernon about it and a few other issues. The mill levy is, in simple terms, a property tax increase to help fund programs and other non-capital enhancements to the school district. [00:01:00] This year, DPS is asking voters to approve a mill of $43.9 million. The lion’s share of that money will be going to increased pay for all district employees. Some quick basic facts about this mill levy: $25.8 million of that total will go to raises for all employees, which amounts to $1,750 per full-time employee, prorated for part-time employees. Then there’s another $4.9 million that goes to mental health and special education support. $4 million goes to career and technical education in high-demand fields, and $9.3 million goes to charter school share required by state law. DPS puts the cost at about $11.50 per $100,000 of home value. For the median $624,800 home, that’s about $72 a year or $6 a month, and that’s an increase from what you currently pay. [00:02:00] It’s worth noting that the DPS share of a typical home tax bill has already gone up nearly 54% since 2020, from $1,480 to a projected $2,276 in 2026, and that’s mostly because home values have risen, and this would be the district’s eighth tax increase since 1988. Denver voters have a long history of being generous, and there’s no reason to expect differently this year. Mill levies and bond issues for Denver Public Schools typically pass by wide margins. This year, however, there are a few extenuating circumstances: the affordability question that’s plaguing the entire country, and in particular cities like Denver, and the ongoing dysfunction and chaos on the Denver School Board and the district administration. While this may shake voters’ confidence in some ways, it’s very doubtful that it will result in any kind of turndown of this mill levy. So we asked Rob and Vernon to come on. They both served on the mill levy committee that helped sort of set the parameters of what the mill levy would go toward, to discuss the reasons voters should approve it and to answer some questions about why maybe some voters should be skeptical that it’s a good idea. [00:03:00] Should be a fun and lively conversation, and really, again, grateful to these two gentlemen for coming on. Thanks, guys.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Thanks, Alan. Thanks, Alexis. Glad to be here.
Rob Gould: Yeah. Thank you very much, both of you, for having us on. Vernon and I love talking about this ballot measure. It is a wonderful thing.
Alan Gottlieb: And Rob pointed out they want to also talk about the statewide NN ballot measure, which is about debrucing and basically freeing up some money to go to schools across the state. But Alexis, do you wanna ask the first question or should I?
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Sure. So when we think about the pay raise for teachers, $1,750 is real money, especially when you think about paraprofessionals and other staff members within the district that are making, in some cases, below poverty wages or below the area median income wages. But for the average teacher, it may or may not make a huge difference, given they’re paid a little bit higher, but they’re still underpaid for their profession. [00:04:00] Rob, what kind of feedback are you getting on this being a flat figure versus it being a percentage of someone’s salary or wage?
Rob Gould: Yeah. No. So that’s actually one of the things that teachers were calling for when we first started this, and what we heard very clearly from our membership. And when we got onto the mill levy committee and talked with all the different people, which Vernon did a great job co-chairing, everybody was in agreement. Like, this shouldn’t be just for teachers, ’cause we could have just said, “Hey, let’s spend the $26 million just on teacher salaries.” But teachers were concerned about the fact that it’s not just about me, it’s about our paraprofessionals in the classroom, it’s about our cafeteria workers, it’s about our facility managers and our custodians. It’s about everybody that actually supports the students in our classrooms. So that’s where our teachers were wholeheartedly in support of that. [00:05:00] And also, having it be in that base level piece, it does help… yes, it may not help people as much… well, it helps everybody, let’s just be straight on that. But it does help those teachers coming in, those first-year teachers, as well, ’cause they’re struggling to live and afford to live in the city of Denver or even in the outskirts. I literally just had an email this morning talking about one of our facility managers in the district, and she, a single mom, has five kids. She literally was living out of her car because she couldn’t find housing this last month. And luckily, some of the members from our DCTA, we have a housing committee, and they were able to actually help her get into some affordable housing. And so that was exciting. But this is the kind of thing that people need. They need that base pay, that salary increase, in order to really just keep your head above water.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I think that’s right. $1,750 is the difference between some people being able to pay their rent or buy groceries for their kids. So that is for sure real money. [00:06:00]
Alan Gottlieb: Vernon, any thoughts, as you were discussing this, where you came down on it?
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah, I think Rob captures it well. I think Rob doesn’t get credit for this because… how we got here is important for me to understand. Rob and the DCTA bargaining unit, in their last bargaining session, had been talking about teacher raises. And Rob, correct me if I’m wrong, but that was not delivered, I think, at the level that was sufficient or respectful, however you want to frame that, in the last bargaining session. And so I think…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Was that the COLA?
Rob Gould: Yeah, so that was… But that was leading into it, yeah. There was the COLA, obviously the COLA disagreement we had from years ago. But then I think what Vernon’s referring to is in 2025, when we’re coming into negotiations, and some of the challenges that we’ve seen have been because of the budget, the state budget, the $1 billion and $1.5 billion deficits that have been there. There hasn’t been funding for public ed, right? [00:07:00] And so because of that, our teachers, the only raise they saw the last two years has been 1%, and we did make it a flat rate of $1,000 the last two years that went to the base for everybody, so that we could bring up those starting salaries, obviously, like I mentioned before. But then on top of that, not just our teachers, but everybody in DPS, we’ve had healthcare increases. We had 11% two years ago, and last year we had a 28% increase in our healthcare. And so most of our educators this year, while they got $1,000 additional money, they actually took pay cuts this year because of healthcare increases. And so that’s been extremely difficult for our educators. And not just our teachers. [00:08:00] Like, once again, our paraprofessionals and our cafeteria workers, they’re just barely making it by. And they can’t afford a lot of those, even health insurance.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah, and I think to Rob’s point, too, we went back and forth as a committee around how much this would be. Would it be 1,000? Would it be 1,500? Would it be 2,000? And I think with the educator voice that was on the committee, to Rob’s point, there was an equal concern to make sure that this mill levy touched some of the other needs that were within the DPS ecosystem. So that’s how we got to the CTE stuff. That’s how we got to the student mental health. That’s how we got to the SPED resources. Because, yeah, folks could have said, “Hey, give the lion’s share. Give all of it.” They could have pushed for more and said, “Hey, all of this should just be about teacher compensation,” and all of that. But I really appreciate the fact that we had a committee of nine, but then all of the meetings that we had when we heard from community, I feel like all the priorities rose to the top, and everybody was not sitting there saying, “Hey, it’s gonna be this or that.” [00:09:00] Everybody came to a good conclusion together.
Alan Gottlieb: I’m glad you brought up the other areas, the student mental health and the career and technical education dollars. ‘Cause I’m curious about, like, those are nice amounts of money, obviously. It’s not anything to shake a stick at. But what does that amount of dollars buy in those two areas? And is it enough to make a substantial difference, or is it just sort of a down payment on something you need a lot more of in the future?
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah. On CTE, I believe it does help with the functionality in the bond that we passed that is renovating our facilities to be the CTE hubs in each region. This allocation for the mill levy is going to ensure that the programming piece of those facilities is gonna be in place and sustainable, right? So that’s a key thing. I agree with you on the down payment piece, though, around the student mental health and wellness. [00:10:00] We ran numbers here as an organization, and the need is far greater than the dollars that we’re investing here. I wish we could just do a hard mill levy just to meet some of the student mental health and wellness needs that we have within our district. And so, yeah, I agree with that framing, Al, and I do think the mental health and wellness dollars are great to have, but I think there is a truth to acknowledge that this doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface, I don’t believe, around the real need that we’re seeing across the district.
Rob Gould: Yeah, and I would definitely reiterate that, ’cause what Vernon’s talking about when it comes to mental health supports, right? We actually did see some gains. It was right after COVID, we had some of the stimulus money where we were actually able to cut caseload sizes for some of our psychologists and social workers in half. We had a pilot program that was working on that, but it went away. So the average number of students, let’s say, a psychologist or social worker works with is about 400. Think about that for a minute. [00:11:00] 1 to 400 ratio. We were able to, with those stimulus funds, cut it down to 200. But of course when those went away, those caseloads went back up. And we actually have data that showed that during that time we were making progress with our kids with this pilot. And we’ve fought to try to continue that, but there wasn’t enough funds. So I think that’s where, to Vernon’s point, it’s a down payment. We need to make sure that we are continuing this effort, with new dollars coming in. And our kids are the ones that are saying it. We had a group from FaithBridge come and speak at public comment, and we had students there talking about the fact that they weren’t able to access mental health supports, and here they are asking for it, looking for it, and they’re having challenges within their lives and weren’t able to get it. So I think that’s where, yes, it’s a down payment. The other portion of that, it’s mental health, but it’s also special education supports. Right? I’ve been a special ed teacher in Denver here for 29 years. [00:12:00] And yes, I’m always going, “It’s been 29 years? I can’t believe it.” But when I first started in Denver, we had caseload sizes in elementary of 1 to 15, right? So we could go around and we could support kids. Now it’s up to 1 to 30. And so it’s doubled over those years. And so just trying to find those individuals that can support our students and really get down in there is important. And it is that piece that’s coming together.
Vernon Jones Jr.: I think too, Alan, I don’t wanna say Alan’s skepticism, because I know Alan’s very optimistic about all things Denver Public Schools.
Rob Gould: Always. Always.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Always. I’ve never read anything…
Alan Gottlieb: And Vernon’s never sarcastic.
Vernon Jones Jr.: I will say, Alan, one of the things around the mental health dollars, though, that I’m excited about, because we know that there are issues. The elephant in the room: there are issues that voters are having about this mill levy related to the board behavior, current board behavior, right? [00:13:00] And so folks are saying, “Hey, let’s stick it to the board.” My good friend Van, he writes his opinion piece and says, “Hey, let’s stick it to the board and say no to this mill levy.” The Denver Post said, “Hey, let’s stick it to the board and say no to this mill levy.” And I appreciate they all have the right to say what they said. But at the same time, I think they need to understand that kids shouldn’t suffer, right? And I don’t think teachers should suffer either, when we’re talking about the resources that are needed, right? And part of what I hear Van and other folks saying, I do agree with around accountability for these dollars, right? Making sure that what we say we’re gonna do with them, we do with them. And I think that’s why we’ve been clear to the district, and the district is committed to making sure that there’s a mill levy oversight committee that will make sure that these dollars actually are spent in the way that they’re supposed to be spent. It’s easy to look at, okay, the teacher allocation. The teachers are gonna see that on their paychecks. [00:14:00] But when we talk about mental health and we talk about SPED, we need to make sure those dollars are going to programs like what Rob is saying, programs that are going to make measurable difference in the lives of students. We can’t just say we have the bucket of money, and then what we’re throwing the money at is not making measurable difference in the lives of students. So our students, students from Student Voice and Leadership, students from other student organizations are gonna be on the board’s helmet and the district’s helmet to say, “Hey, we know these resources are there, and we need these things to be spent in very intentional ways to help with the mental health needs.” So yeah, I get it. I get some of the skepticism. But I think the thing that we should be optimistic about is to make these investments in the lives of young people, to make these investments in the lives of teachers, actually will make measurable difference in the lives of kids overall. But we do need accountability for every dollar. Any time the district takes more money from taxpayers, they need to be accountable for that. [00:15:00]
Alan Gottlieb: I appreciate everything you just said, and I wanna stick a pin in the part about the board and people’s skepticism ’cause I wanna get back to that. But I wanted to ask a couple other questions, and I’ll have Alexis ask a couple of other questions first. Vernon, I wanna ask you specifically because you work in community, very much at the grassroots level all the time. What would you say to a lower income homeowner who might already be struggling with inflation about having at least another $72 per year added to their property tax bill, especially when homeowner’s insurance is going through the roof and adding to people’s monthly payments? And people are just… it’s the affordability thing. People are really struggling. And I know $72 doesn’t sound like a lot of money, but for some people it might be. So what do you tell, maybe, an older widow or widower who’s struggling to make payments? My…
Vernon Jones Jr.: My 90-year-old grandmother. Happy birthday to her, right? She’s lived in her Montbello home for, I think, the last 60-some years, right? And home values there, in Montbello, are not close to the median. I think our median’s, like, 624 across the city. [00:16:00] And so you’re looking at that they’re underneath that. And so, yeah, any money that comes out of anybody’s pocket is significant to them, right? So it’s not my position to say, “Oh, that’s not a lot.” To your point, Alan, it’s a lot to some people. But I think folks who have even little understand the value of the investment, right? My grandmother will say, “Okay, well, if it’s gonna be three more dollars on my tax bill because my house is $400,000, right?” She’s gonna say, the investment that we’re making in kids, she’s from that generation that says, “Yeah, you do what you’re supposed to do for kids.” Now, there’s some adults that she would not wanna give a red cent to. But you’re talking about kids and teachers, I think people get that. Like, you need to have strong public schools that are resourced, and people can agree there. I think all the other stuff that’s trying to take your money on this ballot, we can talk more about that. But I think when it comes to schools and it comes to students, I think most people agree that’s our precious commodity. [00:17:00] We’ve gotta take care of our kids, and we gotta make sure they have great, great teachers in front of them. So I think less argument about that and more argument about all the other things that wanna take their money.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Thanks, Vernon. Yeah, I agree. Speaking of other things that are in here that people may disagree with, I’ll ask this question to both of you, but Rob, I’ll start with you. There is a decent chunk of change in here, $9.3 million going to charter schools. There…
Vernon Jones Jr.: What? No.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Newsflash.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Hey, hey, but Alexis, to be fun, in all the community meetings we had, I think that was like a rub. People were like, “What?”
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Let’s talk about it. So I know that members of the DCTA are certainly, some of them are frustrated by this. Can you talk a little bit about why that decision was made? How maybe more critical members of the union are responding to that? And then I’ll give you a chance, and then Vernon, would love to hear your perspective as well.
Rob Gould: Yeah, so I’ll start off with this: these are funds that are, yes, going to charter schools, but they’re going to kids, right? It’s going to support kids and charter schools. [00:18:00] I think, once again, I’m more pro-public, and charter schools are within that public ecosphere. I’m pretty stern about for-profit charter schools. Let me be very clear, because that’s a big difference…
Alan Gottlieb: There are none in Colorado, though, right? I think there are none in Colorado.
Rob Gould: Depends on how you look at it.
Alan Gottlieb: Okay. Well, we’ll have you back on the podcast on that one, Rob.
Rob Gould: Yeah.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah, I was gonna say, now listen, come on, let’s tell the truth. There are no for-profit charters in Colorado.
Rob Gould: Depends on how you look at it.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I think Rob will be in the minority, so moving forward.
Rob Gould: Well, yeah, moving forward. That’s kind of like how we look at a…
Vernon Jones Jr.: Green school, right, Rob?
Rob Gould: Yeah. Maybe it’s green school. Well, it’s like corporations. There’s lots of ways to hide your money, we’ll just stop there.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: So Rob, what are your thoughts? Continue. Continue.
Rob Gould: But once again, it’s going to support students. So whether that is… obviously, the challenges that our educators have with charter schools is the licensing, right? [00:19:00] And transparency requirements and things. And those are just part of Colorado state law, right? And I think those are things we should always make sure we do, right? Like, the amount of scrutiny that educators are in within our traditional public school models, they’re kind of like, “Well, why aren’t those entities as scrutinized?” right? So I think that’s kind of where the rub is. And we also see that there’s those dollars going to those other places. I think there’s also where… Vernon, you and I heard this very clear in some of our schools when we were going to some of those boundary meetings, right? Like, the mass expansion of charter schools that happened during that 2005, 2015 time period, now we’re dealing with the consequences of that, where we’re closing schools, and that’s a challenge for a lot of people, too. And that’s where I think we heard a lot of the rub coming through in those meetings that we were at. But at the end of the day, you know…
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah. And I also think the rub is also that we have underperforming schools. It doesn’t matter what model you’re talking about. [00:20:00] And I think this has been the state law since 2017, that charters authorized by Denver Public Schools are public schools authorized by the district, and those kids, no matter what Xochitl says, those kids who go to those schools are equally students of Denver Public Schools, right? And they deserve the same resources to be available to them because the public board authorized these public charters to do the work that the public district itself was not effectively doing, right? So I think that’s also important. Like, we can spin and make things political, or we can tell people what the law says and why we operate the way we do. That’s a state law that governs this. And so we had to tell people that in our meetings, like when we were going to these community meetings, “Hey, state law governs this. This is why it is the way it is.” And I think that’s why our committee was effective, is because while we came from maybe different educational political leanings, I think we kind of set this baseline that says, “Hey, no BS here. We’re talking about real resources that are needed across these lines of educational ideology. We need to be straight up about what is what.” [00:21:00] And what is what is that the charter share is there because it is state law. And so, because those kids, to your point, Alexis, those kids go to Denver Public Schools. They too are public school students. So we can’t say, “Hey, we’re gonna get this mill levy and we’re gonna act like…” Like, ’cause there are families in Southwest Denver who literally feel othered by the board sometimes, who feel like, “Hey, we are not Denver Public School students because we go to charters.” What? They go to College View, DSST College View, a strong performing school in Southwest Denver, and we’re gonna tell them, “Well, you’re not in the traditional public school system, so you don’t get the resources.” That’s not how it works. The state law ensures that our local political ideologies do not other certain kids and create a situation where some kids don’t get the resources. That’s what I appreciate about it. [00:22:00]
Rob Gould: And what I’d add to that, Vernon, is that’s where that portion also of the CTE, the career and technical education, comes in, right? So we have these hubs that we’re building that every student in DPS, whether you go to a charter school or not, can access, right? Traditional, charter, everybody can access these.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Oh, I actually didn’t know that. So if you go to a charter high school, you can access a CTE?
Rob Gould: Yes.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Do we have, at the center, like a career early college?
Vernon Jones Jr.: Well, there’s some internal communication about that, not just with charters, but also with traditional schools around… okay, we’re gonna get this money for CTE, and this came up in our discussions, because right now there are schools, like North High School, for example, talks about, “Hey, we pay a certain amount from our school budget for this CTE stuff as it sits now. Does this change that reality to where now I have these resources back in my school budget?” [00:23:00] So there is some of that that I also think needs to be clarified, figured out, and principals brought that up in our sessions to say, “Okay, if these CTE dollars are coming in, do I now not have to pay for this?” Right? And that also came up in our discussions because we said, “Okay, if we allocate this much money to CTE, does that bring the school’s share portion down?”
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Right. It’s the idea of, like, supplement versus supplant in school budgets.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Correct.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Before we move on, and I wanna let Alan ask the next question, I just wanna point out the way that we just disagreed, we may disagree on definitions on things. Like, this is why, with people like you two leading the mill levy override process, the committee, and then there being accountability from community members on oversight committees like the two of you, these are the reasons that I am supportive of the mill. And again, speaking as an individual, not affiliated with any organization. [00:24:00]
Vernon Jones Jr.: This is not a formal endorsement of The Board Hawk podcast?
Rob Gould: No. Yeah, I’m starting to hear that.
Vernon Jones Jr.: That’s what I’m hearing. That’s right.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: So for me, the fact that you do have oversight, you do have community members weighing in and wrestling with these difficult decisions, and me knowing where Rob and Vernon disagree, but being able to operate like adults in that disagreement and do what’s best for kids, these are the reasons why I’m supporting the mill.
Rob Gould: Point of order.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Point of order? Uh-oh. I’m not finished. Please do not interrupt me while I am speaking.
Rob Gould: This is getting real, people.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: So anyway, these are the reasons. If this went into a black box and people didn’t know how money was spent, or I had reason to believe there was fiscal mismanagement or fraud, and I have no reason to believe that, because I trust the individuals who are holding the district accountable and reviewing the finances. I just wanna point that out. Like, this is what good, healthy debate and getting to consensus looks like. [00:25:00] We can continue doing dramatic questions, but I just wanna…
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah, because if you don’t… this is the other thing, if we don’t pass it, those needs are still there. And so you’re gonna have to go find the money somewhere. You’re gonna then have to cut from general ops. To Rob’s point about the program that he talked about that got cut after COVID dollars stopped, there’s a lot of things that, if this does not pass… The district does not paint the gloom-and-doom picture, but trust that in our conversations folks were preparing for, “Well, if this doesn’t pass,” let’s not take for granted that Denver has always passed, “what would we have to cut? How would we have to approach things differently?” And I think those conversations are still being had, and folks are preparing for the fact, like, what if it doesn’t pass? We still have teachers, we still have employees that need to be paid more. We still have these mental health needs. We still have these SPED needs. And then we will have these CTE buildings that the bond has either built or renovated, and we won’t have the dollars to fund the program and staff them. [00:26:00]
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Beautiful buildings with nothing going on in them. And this is where I wanna take issue with one thing you said at the beginning, Alan, where it’s like, and I’m paraphrasing the word you used, but it’s likely to pass. It’s almost a shoo-in. I actually think when we make assumptions like, “Oh, yeah, it’s okay if I don’t vote for it,” as a position of, like, a protest or whatever, but because it will pass… It may not. F around and find out, right? So I hope people aren’t F-ing around too much.
Alan Gottlieb: Right, no. I’ve heard people say, “I hope it passes by one vote,” and stuff like that.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I’ve heard that too.
Alan Gottlieb: So that’s what you’re objecting to?
Rob Gould: Yeah. The Rob vote… Make sure it’s your vote, right? That’s what I want to say. The one thing I do wanna say about the accountability piece, if we can, I agree with Vernon. It is about making sure that everybody in the community holds DPS accountable for these dollars. One of the things that DCTA does, like, we hold the district accountable constantly. [00:27:00] I’ll give you one example, in 2019 we had what was called a highest priority bonus, right, where they had certain schools that got a bonus. We did a study on that to see, okay, we’ll keep this bonus if it actually makes a difference. We did a study on it. There was no difference between keeping teachers in these buildings versus others. Are you…
Alan Gottlieb: Talking about ProComp?
Rob Gould: Yes, yeah. ProComp. This was, like, the last holdover. And that wasn’t part of the original ProComp. That was an additional piece that the district decided to put $5 million in because they thought it would make a difference. I have my opinions on what that is. That’s a different conversation. But what we did was, we did a study on it, found out it wasn’t working, and then what teachers decided, instead of, like, putting that into salaries, they built… This is what teachers wanted. They built a pool of special ed and mental health support people, we call them pool, that when, like, if somebody’s out on leave or somebody’s gone for a little bit, then they can go in and make sure those kids are getting services. [00:28:00] And every single year, especially in those years of bargaining, we are asking for an accounting of those dollars to make sure that those $5 million aren’t just being absorbed somewhere. So that’s just one example of what DCTA does, but it is important for all of us, especially if there’s… there will be a mill levy oversight committee, and so that committee needs to have full access to what’s happening with these dollars.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: And can you, for those listening who may not understand what the oversight committees are, can both or one of you explain what both the Bond Oversight Committee and the Mill Oversight Committee do, and how are they appointed?
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah. I like to say when I was on the Bond Oversight Committee, we monitored the pennies. And it’s like, we monitor the pennies and we monitor the timelines, right? Like, if there’s a deliverable date, we make sure that every penny that was supposed to be going to that thing goes to that thing. [00:29:00] If there are costs, if cost rises because of delays, because of inflation, because of embargoes, because of tariffs, right? Those kinds of things impact the cost of delivery. And so the Bond Oversight Committee is sitting there with people in operations, people in facilities, people in technology, with the entire district team, and saying, “Okay, are we able to deliver this on time, under budget or on budget? And if there is going over budget, what is that doing?” And from a bond side, you also have extra funds that come because of some of the interest that comes up because of the money that you have there in your bonds, and then the group decides, based on a project list that existed before, how these excess funds are going to go and fund those other projects. So it’s very, very technical. It’s very, very thorough to the staff that facilitates those and to the people who are on those. That’s why we said we wanted to have a mill levy override oversight committee, because we saw how effectively we do it with the bonds. [00:30:00] And normally we run the bonds and the mills together. It was done differently this time around. So this will be the first, I believe, that we will have a separate mill levy oversight committee, which will do the same thing. It will monitor the pennies, it will make sure things are going where they’re supposed to be going, on time, on target. And it’s great. And so I believe, and this is me speaking based on… we don’t have the full answer to this, but similar to the bond oversight committee, there will be an application that folks can apply to. I know that there will be some of us from the mill levy override committee that will probably be on this oversight committee to make sure there’s some continuance. So the district will have folks apply for that, just like they do the bond oversight committee. They will select people, and you’ll have to go to lots of early morning meetings, and you gotta love numbers. I remember those when I was on staff. You gotta love numbers, you gotta love spreadsheets. [00:31:00] They’re not always the most exciting meetings, but they are thorough, and I think, to your point, Alexis, I do think it upholds the public trust.
Alan Gottlieb: Thanks, you guys. I don’t wanna fail, and I promise you we will get to NN, but I do want to also get into some of this other stuff about the DPS board before we do that, because I know I’ve had a lot of people ask me that wanna ask these questions. So either one of you, but Rob in particular, the board, I mean, you can use semantics however you want, but the board is riddled with dysfunction and getting nothing done, and hasn’t for a number of months. The administration is struggling to develop a strategic roadmap that’s meaningful in any real sense. Opportunity gaps are enormous in the district and not closing. So why should voters trust a poorly functioning organization with another penny of their hard-earned money is the question. We’ve talked about this, but I guess one argument for voting no is that voters can weigh in every two years on electing new board members, but with things this bad now and the next election a year away, why shouldn’t voters send a message that things must change now? [00:32:00] And if they don’t do it by a vote, how should they do it?
Rob Gould: Yeah. So no, I’m glad you asked this question, ’cause one of the things that I think voters really need to know is that when this came about, when we had the mill levy discussion and everything, I contacted all of the other unions within DPS, and we made DPS sign what’s called a memorandum of understanding, an MOU, that is a contract, a binding contract, to make sure that, number one, the dollars that are going to employees will actually go to employees, right? So let’s start there, because that piece is, no matter what’s going on with the board up here, we have this signed document that says you will use these funds for this purpose. So I just wanna make sure that everybody knows that piece. Now, getting back to the other side of your question. [00:33:00] Let me start with, first of all, everybody should be feeling like you shouldn’t have these frustrations in your workplace, no matter what position you are in Denver Public Schools. Everybody should feel safe. Everybody should feel listened to. And so we do recognize the gravity of this. Our educators have been extremely frustrated with what’s going on in terms of, like, why aren’t you talking about what’s affecting our students, what’s affecting our educators, right? And that’s where, in our conversations with every single board member, we’ve been like, you know, I know it’s difficult, I know it’s frustrating, but you need to work through this, and you need to move forward and figure out what our students need and what our employees need, right? I was at a school last week and talking to educators. This was right in the middle of the whole thing that was going on, and nobody was talking about the… [00:34:00] Yes, they knew about what was happening, but they weren’t concerned about that. They were concerned about their class size. They were concerned about making sure that they had time to get their job done, right? Planning time and time to look at scoring and grading and looking at data. But they were also concerned about funding, right? Funding, making sure that their schools aren’t cut and what’s happening. And so that’s where our… In fact, at our rep council, our rep council voted, and we actually did send a letter to the board stating, “Hey, you need to stay focused, and you need to get on all of the priorities that are here.”
Alan Gottlieb: And one more question, really specifically for you, Rob, and this is where you’re gonna hear the… Alan Gottlieb and love, so just…
Rob Gould: Oh, yes. I know this guy.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Hulk smash. Hulk smash.
Alan Gottlieb: Okay? So you’ve had one DCTA-backed member, DJ Torres, resign. Another’s been censured for allegedly making antisemitic remarks and possible conflicts of interest from her job with the CEA. [00:35:00] You endorsed them. You endorsed Xochitl Gaitan, the president who has alienated almost all of her other colleagues, and rumor has it that you pressured other board members to elect her president last fall during the decisions about who was gonna be officers. Just wanna know if you look back and now have any regrets about who you endorsed and the process, and if the kind of… the cluster F that we’re in now has made you just think differently about how you vet candidates you endorse.
Rob Gould: Yeah, and let’s just start with the fact that in the beginning, in the fall, no, we did not pressure people to have Xochitl be the president. What we did say to everybody is we felt like everybody, or those candidates, should all have an equal opportunity to be part of the elected governing body, right? And so that’s one of the things that we pushed for, but we were very frustrated with the fact that how things are coming out, right? Because we think that our educators, and we think the board needs to do what our educators want, which is they want them to stay on task, on topic, and focus on the things that we need. [00:36:00] So, and I hear that. All I can say is it’s not just a frustration of mine, it’s a frustration from the rest of our educators, and I think that’s where just trying to make sure… I’ve even had to have these conversations with our teachers, right? Like, they’re like, “Well, why should I go and knock on doors for the mill levy?” And it’s like, well, wait a minute, let’s separate those two things out, right? This is a point in time. When we have an election cycle, we look for candidates that are more aligned with our values, what we think that candidates should have. That’s a point in time. This is something completely different. This is about making sure that we are able to pay, once again, not just our teachers, but all of our educational support professionals. Making sure we have those other supports in place for our kids too. [00:37:00] So, definitely having those conversations with our educators too. But I think what I would say to that is it takes all of us to hold these individuals accountable. I think that I…
Vernon Jones Jr.: I mean, Rob, would you say… accountability’s great. I think Rob’s good at this. I heard…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Not answering the exact question, Rob.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah.
Rob Gould: Well, I’m getting there.
Vernon Jones Jr.: I love what Alan said…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Be specific.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Alan was like, “Hey,” like, not the regret. I think I go back to the first question you asked, like, okay, we’ve seen all this, we’ve seen this disconnect between the board and the executive leadership of the district. How do you feel about that? And how would we resolve that? Let me say this part. If you don’t pass the mill levy, you still are gonna have to trust that executive and that board to figure out where to cut and find money. Okay? And there’s no money…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: To cut.
Vernon Jones Jr.: So let’s put that in perspective too. So if you have a trust issue, then what you are going to do is put in their hands the bigger pot of money and allow them to chop it up and maybe not have the level of engagement that we need to make the right decisions for kids. [00:38:00] I’m concerned about that. Two, I would say to your question, Alan, is I know that Rob and I have talked about this, I think maybe briefly, but I talked about this with other administrators, other teachers. I was just visiting a certain school, I won’t say ’cause then you’ll know who the leader was, but I was meeting with the leader and he said to me, “If any of that stuff that happened on the board happened at a school, I as an administrator would probably be put on leave, and a teacher involved could possibly lose their job.” And there’s that high level of accountability that we have in our schools, right? I think it is hypocritical for the same level of accountability not to be mirrored on our board and in the executive role of superintendent, right? [00:39:00] There has to be accountability, and there has to be a righting of this. And I’ve publicly said this, I personally said this to board members, “Hey, y’all need to start all over, because it was a hot mess from the beginning when you guys were selecting who was gonna be board leadership. I didn’t know that we had to have parties at certain people’s houses to decide who’s gonna be board leadership. That’s not how it works. Y’all need to reset.” And I think… If I was the board president, and this happened on my watch, in order to restore trust with community, in order to reestablish the standard within the board of leadership, I would say, “Hey, as president, I’m asking us to reorganize ourselves, to allow us again to establish a new frame and standard of leadership on this board. Not asking anybody to resign their seat, not asking anybody to do that, but I am saying this leadership team has not gotten it right. [00:40:00] And so from a board perspective, both Gaitan and Hunter should be compelled to say, ‘As leaders, we’ve got to make a change. We’re not delivering.'” And Xochitl, to her credit, said that as much at the public meeting, but I think words and actions have to align.
Rob Gould: Yeah.
Vernon Jones Jr.: And so I’m looking for actions.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Let’s let Rob finish his…
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah. But Rob said he agreed with me. He doesn’t have to go any further.
Rob Gould: There’s a lot of things I agree with Vernon on, and some I don’t. But every time I have a conversation with Vernon, I have to say that. No, I tease you. But going back to… one of the biggest frustrations I think our educators have is the timing of all of this, right? And I think you guys talked about that a little bit on one of your shows, that was very odd to me, right? ‘Cause, like, you had Dr. DJ Torres, he is a wonderful human being, and Monica is too. [00:41:00] And I’ve known both of them for… Well, I knew DJ for the last year or so, but got to know him through this. But then Monica, I’ve known for years. She started when she was a teacher in Denver. She started our Black Educator Caucus, and she was really pushing to make sure that in the far northeast that our teachers had what they needed, right? And I think that’s the other… going back to your questions about the accountability and is there… I disagree with DPS and DPS’s lawyers about the conflict of interest piece because I know how CEA works, and it doesn’t work the way they’re describing it. Monica does not have any… there’s no connection in that sense with Monica having any sort of financial gain or anything from that. That doesn’t work that way. And I think the other piece of that is, Monica’s job in CEA is purely about equity, making sure that… she does outreach with our members, and she makes sure, like, she uplifts a lot of those educators of color and their voices. [00:42:00] And she also helps them go to the legislature and advocate and things like that. So that’s a completely separate thing from this in her position. And I understand where people think there might be some conflict there, but it doesn’t exist. It’s very clear on that. And then going back to that piece of the timing, when Dr. DJ Torres and Monica had questions about what is happening, and they raised those questions in June, and then all of a sudden, July, something comes out of this, and supposedly we’re sitting on information for months. Like, to Vernon’s point, if an employee had withheld information like that, they would’ve been in a lot of trouble. And I think that’s where you gotta look at a couple things, right? You’ve got this policy governance thing where the board has one employee, supposedly, right? [00:43:00] And they need to hold that employee accountable, and that employee needs to do their best to support the people that work for the organization. So, and I hope I answered all those pieces.
Vernon Jones Jr.: No, you didn’t. No. But I think the…
Alan Gottlieb: I think you did. Got it. Yeah. Thank you. No, no. I don’t think you did.
Vernon Jones Jr.: I don’t think so. No, and I think you did. You talked about holding… That’s the thing. They hold Marrero accountable. Well, I’m not talking about Marrero in this. I’m talking about board leadership. Like…
Rob Gould: Oh, yeah. No, thank you.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Absolutely.
Rob Gould: So let me talk about that.
Vernon Jones Jr.: I mean, what does that accountability look like from your perspective?
Rob Gould: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, I’ve got a lot of questions about this from our membership. And one of the things is, we have a political action committee in DCTA, and I’m meeting with those individuals, and this is one of the things that they’re concerned about. And so it’s not… obviously there’s, in my conversations that I’m having with board members, making sure that I’m holding them accountable for these things, but it’s also about our membership. ‘Cause everybody thinks, “Oh, DCTA is one guy.” It’s not. DCTA has nearly 4,000 members that come from a variety of different backgrounds and thoughts and opinions. [00:44:00] I always say I have 4,000 different bosses, right? But it’s up to those members to kinda come together to figure out how to support that and to hold that accountability, and I do know that there are groups of educators that are looking into that. And I think they’ve talked about things like report cards, right? Oh, sorry, Alexis.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: No, I apologize. I interrupted you. I think what’s so surprising to me is that DCTA and most of our Denver-based unions are such good organizers, and we haven’t seen an organizing effort. Is it because there’s not consensus on that and they’re still figuring it out? Is… my recommendation would be wait till after the mill, because you don’t wanna risk the mill? Like, ’cause I’m hearing from members that there’s something brewing, and if you can’t share, I understand that. I respect the membership. But for an organizing body, I’m not seeing a lot of organizing around the outcry that’s happening.
Rob Gould: Yeah, and I think… so that’s an important thing to note, is that it’s not just whatever Rob thinks that we go with, right? [00:45:00] We have a body of individuals that talk about these things and figure out which way to go. Like, rep council is our highest governing body, and we’re gonna have this conversation next week, actually, as part of our rep council. And then we’re going to task those different pieces to come up with ideas on how we can do that further, right? And we can…
Vernon Jones Jr.: Answer it all day.
Rob Gould: We don’t necessarily… because we’re talking to so many members, yeah, it does take time. I appreciate that. And I think you have a good point on the fact that all of our efforts right now are focused on making sure that this mill levy gets passed. And that’s where we were telling all of the board members, like, “Hey, maybe you can all have these discussions later on,” right?
Alan Gottlieb: Two quick follow-ups, Rob, and then we’ll get on into NN and then we’ll wrap up, ’cause this has been a long conversation. First of all, I’m just curious, if you knew then what you know now, would you have endorsed Xochitl Gaitan and Monica and DJ? [00:46:00] And then Amy seems a little apart from this discussion, but then I did wanna come back around to… you talked about Monica and the CEA stuff, but I haven’t heard DCTA or you say anything about the alleged antisemitic statements that she made, whether she said the things that she’s alleged to have said to the superintendent and the board president, or whether just the things she said to Amy, which, you know, as a fellow Jew, were pretty offensive to me, too. Do you have anything you wanna say about that? Because I haven’t heard anything from you.
Rob Gould: Yeah, we’ve actually been communicating with our members, and we’ve sent out press releases and things like that. Not all of those have been communicated outwardly, right? By the press, I’m talking about. But we have been making statements on it the whole time. And I go back to that, nobody should ever feel… everyone should feel safe, everybody should feel respected in these conversations. And so there’s a lot of different pieces in this, right? There’s a three-day investigation where it ended up being a she said, she said, he said, right? [00:47:00] And when you looked at that, where was that? But then there’s also that interpersonal piece where it sounds like Director Klein Molk and Director Hunter need to have a conversation with each other, and they shouldn’t, either one of them, feel that way. I think looking at both, and to your point, like, this is a very sensitive topic, right? And I’ve been hearing from some of our Jewish members about it and how their concerns are, right? And so what do we… how can we, number one, listen to each other, make sure that the messages that we’re sending to each other are interpreted in the way we intend them to be? ‘Cause sometimes that happens, right? Sometimes Vernon says things about me that I know he doesn’t mean. No, I’m kidding, Vernon.
Vernon Jones Jr.: I…
Rob Gould: But no, but seriously, it’s that piece of, you’ve got to work… You gotta find ways to work together because it’s not about my personality. It’s not my background. [00:48:00] This is about what do we need to do to come together for our kids. And so, to your point, like, I’ve got a lot of concerns about this, and I think everybody needs… and our members do too.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Let’s not use the “this is about our kids” to shirk accountability, though. I get so sick of that too. It’s like, “Hey, we’re about the kids. Put this to bed because of the kids.” No, how about you shouldn’t have behaved that way in the first place? If it was about the kids, then why are we having this conversation at lunch? How is this about the kids? We haven’t talked about data. We haven’t talked about proficiency. How is this about the kids? Like, I think people are done falling for this okey-doke that it’s about the kids, and I, as somebody who respects DCTA, as somebody who respects that my mother, my aunts were a part of the union forever as 40-plus year teachers, I do expect DCTA to be clear, and I know they have been. I’ve talked to folks on rep council, but I do expect DCTA to say clearly there’s no place for antisemitism, and I think you said that in one of your press releases. [00:49:00] But I think if you have somebody that you endorse, that it’s proven and against… She said, she said, he said, but if those things are substantiated ever, I believe this about Rob. I believe this about DCTA, that there would’ve been a hard line of not acceptable, right? But when you have a she said, she said, he said, it kind of leaves it kind of did it happen, did it not happen? I think that gives adults too much room to kinda not put a line down in the sand and say, “Hey, this is wrong.”
Rob Gould: Well, no, and we actually were calling for a thorough investigation, and I think that’s one of the frustrations from our members and also for me personally. I’m like, this investigation was three days?
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: And the investigator even admitted that should she have had more time, she would’ve looked into other things.
Rob Gould: Exactly. And I’ve known Monica for a long time. I’ve never heard any of those words come out of her. And so that’s where I’m kind of… it’s not that I’m skeptical. [00:50:00] Like, I understand the interaction at hand that occurred between the two directors, and that’s one of those things of, like, are you sending those messages clearly? Or do you need to have a further understanding with one another about what was being asked or what was being said? Because obviously somebody is coming out of that conversation feeling disrespected and feeling threatened, right? Or however they were told.
Vernon Jones Jr.: And Rob, we agree. Everything rises and falls on leadership. So all the stuff that we’re talking about here to me is fruit of a poisonous tree, right? It’s the fruit from the root. The root of all of this is better board leadership prevents this kind of stuff from happening.
Rob Gould: And actually I’m glad you said that, because it isn’t just about better board leadership, it’s about better board training. Because that’s one of the things we’ve seen, is you take everyday people, you’re thrown into this role, and then you’re expected to make these huge decisions, and there’s no training or support, right? [00:51:00] Like, we’ve been thinking about how can we do more training and support for our board members and candidates and that sort of thing. So, to your point.
Vernon Jones Jr.: I will partner with you on that pipeline. Let’s do that, because I think we should not be endorsing people who are not ready to do the job.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: And I would just like to add one last piece, and I’m about to make a lot of people mad by kind of giving Rob a little bit of a pass here. Because I don’t have my own shortage of criticisms of DCTA at times. The thing that I really respect and really get frustrated about unions is how decentralized the leadership is. And so, Rob, while you are the president of the union, I understand that your membership and the rep council, and even how you show up in elections, very much depends on the elected representatives who are put in positions to represent their members and their different… is it regions? I don’t remember how the structure works, but it’s not like it’s just Rob calling the shots. [00:52:00] I wanna reiterate that. The way that unions are set up is it is a governing body, similar to the board, that makes the decision. It’s not Rob Gould, president of the DCTA, making the decision. And so as much as I can be frustrated, like, “Why haven’t you rescinded the endorsement? Why haven’t you done this?” I know that there are conversations happening, hearing from members, hearing from teachers, hearing from others, that it’s not for a lack of interest in paying attention, it’s they have to go through their governing process. They have to go through their, you know, elected leadership. And so I’m eager to hear how the DCTA, who is a very key player in electing some of these board members, chooses to respond coming, especially after the election, about what accountability looks like. And it’s only for them to say, ’cause they’re the ones that are the dues-paying members. So I just wanna say that. One other piece, ’cause I know we’re at time and I wanna get to NN, yeah…
Alan Gottlieb: I was gonna… But I have one more follow-up after that.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Oh, sure. Okay. Well, you do your follow-up, ’cause mine is a pivot, so you go ahead, Alan.
Alan Gottlieb: Okay. And I appreciate what Alexis just said about the timing and everything, but I’m still gonna ask you, Rob. [00:53:00] I asked you if you regretted your endorsement of Xochitl. I will withdraw that question and ask instead, do you think there should be, as Vernon said, a reorganization of the board leadership?
Rob Gould: Oh. Yeah, so here’s what I think about that, right? I think that you’ve got a new person coming in at some point, whoever that might be, right? Unfortunately, voters don’t get to choose that now. They get to choose it later, right? But then they’ll have somebody that comes in. I think that discussion should probably happen after that new person comes in and we try to figure out, are we still going in the right direction? Are we still doing the same? Once again, in terms of DCTA, when this went down, we were like, “Hey, you guys were our backed candidates. We think everybody should have a position in leadership.” And so I think they should relook at that, right, and probably make a determination. And if they come up with the same exact makeup or whatever, fine. [00:54:00] Make sure you find ways to hold each other accountable for that, right? ‘Cause I think that, whether it be, “How do I get something onto the agenda?” or “How do I navigate this piece?” That should be clear and, like, clear information for everybody. Everybody should have training around that. Everybody should know, like, what it is. Like, they’re here to get the job done and to move things forward, and everybody… or even if it’s information. That’s another one that I’ve heard commonly. Everybody should be provided with the information that they need. And so if I’m doing that with my members, they hold me accountable, and I have to provide that to them. So I think everybody should do the same.
Alan Gottlieb: Okay. Me too. Finally, onto NN, and I think we’re gonna break the record here for our longest podcast episode ever. So congratulations, you guys.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yeah, NN, and then I’m gonna ask the closing question, and it’ll be about redistricting, so be prepared.
Alan Gottlieb: Okay. The NN question is… Well, let’s talk about it, because I didn’t put it in my opening notes. [00:55:00] But in one way, maybe this would be something, if the funding passes, it might help reduce the frequency with which DPS has to go to the voters asking for more money, because it would free up some funding. But please explain NN and why people should endorse it.
Rob Gould: Yeah. No, thank you so much. So NN is… this has been kind of like the Colorado Education Association. We’ve taken all the lessons learned. It’s not just CEA. It’s a whole coalition that brought this together, right? But they’ve taken everything they’ve learned over the last few years. We knew that when TABOR came in and all the different aspects of it, we knew this was gonna really put the squeeze on public education. And the way I try to explain it to people is, like, okay, we have squeezed every little bit out of this turnip. There’s no other… we’ve done a lot of efficiencies. Yes, there’s other things you could do, but it’s really about funding. The legislature did a study, and we are currently $4 billion underfunded in the state of Colorado. [00:56:00] And when it comes to teacher salaries, we’re 50th in the nation. When it comes to educational funding, we’re 43rd in the nation. And so my whole thing is, hey, we would just love to get to Kansas standards, right? Wouldn’t that be great if we could just get to Kansas standards? But one of the things that NN’s gonna do is, it raises the TABOR cap. I think, I believe it’s 2%. And then it ends up, over a 10-year period, it brings $2 billion back to public ed. So it doesn’t fully fill that well, but it’s going to help cut it significantly. And that means more… we’ve got a lot of challenges. Obviously lots of districts are dealing with declining enrollment, other things, but it’s also just making sure that you can maintain and keep good educators in the state of Colorado. It has those mechanisms, so one of the mechanisms that’s built into it is accountability. The money can only be used for salaries, class size, and additional programs like CTE and other components like that. [00:57:00] So that’s one of the things where I think… this is an opportunity that all of us can make, that conscious decision to say yes to NN and really support our schools. And it’s gonna take a couple years to really see that difference. I’m curious what it would look like if we passed 87 and NN, that’s one of those X factors. But bare minimum, we’ve gotta get this NN across the line, because it’s good legislation, and it’s going to help our students.
Alan Gottlieb: And it’s true. It’s some very token amount of people’s small TABOR refunds that they would be giving up in order for this to pass, right?
Vernon Jones Jr.: Yeah. But I think, Alan, the same issue that folks have when they talk about the mill levy, too, about NN, you read your Blue Book. If you haven’t got your Blue Book, we talked about it on our podcast. Make sure you got your Blue Book, because when you read about NN, and I’m gonna read straight from the Blue Book, [00:58:00] “All retained money would not go directly to K12 classrooms. During the first 10 years, funding also supports children’s programs such as preschool and childcare.” Okay? “After 10 years, revenue beyond required K12 allocation could support other purposes as chosen by the state legislature.” Right? So I think there’s also that, that people need to vote informed and aware of, not just this front side, “Oh, it’s about the children.” We also need to question, okay, what are legislators, what might be their priorities after 10 years that they would use the additional money for beyond the K12 allocation? Are kids gonna still benefit? Are teachers still gonna benefit? Or are we going to say, “Okay, now there’s legislative pet projects that we didn’t intend, but now they have the funding to do it.” So I think we believe in making sure when we talk about an issue, we talk about the whole side of it. And so I know that that’s been some concern from people, like, “Okay, I get it. I love this upfront investment in education. But then talk to me about the 10 years after that. Who’s gonna be in the legislature 10 years from now? What might their priorities be?” [00:59:00] And so it’s just a lot to consider. And if I was writing it, I would’ve written it a little bit differently, but I agree with the premise. We do need more resources within K12 education. We do need it in early childhood education. But when we write stuff that kind of leaves this open window or open opportunity 10 years from now, that… Most folks in the legislature won’t be here 10 years from now. So just another thought to put out there.
Rob Gould: Thank you. And once again, that’s what democracy is about, right? We gotta make sure we’re holding everybody accountable, and I think, like, to your point, Vernon, that’s why I’m curious about 87, and I don’t know if any of you make more than a million. I don’t wanna, you know, step on any toes. This podcast…
Alan Gottlieb: This podcast just rakes it in, Rob. We’re in the…
Rob Gould: We’re not on the DC…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: We’re not on the DC pay scale.
Rob Gould: In our dusty basement. Yeah, right. I didn’t wanna say. But as long as you’re not earning over a million dollars, you’re gonna be better off with 87, right? [01:00:00] And then, of course, there’s the… but…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I think what’s…
Rob Gould: Yeah, go ahead.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: What’s… I’m so sorry. What’s so hard for me with these types of things is that people vote assuming they will get there, right? And I love that for people. I love that they think they’re gonna end up earning a… like the marijuana…
Rob Gould: Tax.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Right, exactly. Like, I’m on a wealth building journey. I would love to be at a point by the time I retire that I’m making a million dollars a year. The reality of that happening, right, is difficult. And so this is the part that kills me, is like people always vote in their own self-interest, or often vote in their own self-interest, and it’s like, let’s be real for a second.
Rob Gould: I don’t know. But then with 87, if there’s other priorities of budget besides the K12 education, you’ve got Medicaid, right? And supporting people with healthcare. That’s a huge piece of the budget. If we could help support and bolster that, that’ll actually end up helping kids in our classrooms too. And mental health supports too. So I think there’s a whole bunch of that. [01:01:00] And our roads suck too.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Oh, that’s right.
Vernon Jones Jr.: As we said, it’s not just about your vote. It’s about following what happens after you vote. To your point, Rob, it’s like…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Amen, brother.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Vote, but you need to pay attention to what happens after you vote.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yep. And that’s why not just DPS, but the legislature’s also important, ’cause the people you elect, if NN passes, will determine how these funds are spent. So I know this was primarily talking about the mill levy override, and then we talked about NN just now. Right as we hit record, an email came through from the district, and I wanna read that email. And I got a text message from a 17-year strong DCTA member who is a fellow mama at my kids’ school and is on the CSC with me. Shout out to Jenny. You know who you are. She texted me this, and I was like, “Wait, what?” So I went and looked at my email. So I got the parent email. I’m just gonna read one short paragraph and would love you both to respond.
Alan Gottlieb: Whoa, yeah. I just read it.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yeah. So this is from the superintendent. “Dear DPS community. After hearing from family, staff, and community members across the district through the redrawing our district equitably initiative, I have made a recommendation to the Board of Education to make no changes to school boundaries and enrollment zones this fall. The district has completed all work in regard to this initiative, and existing school boundaries and enrollment zones will remain in place for the 2027, 2028 school year.” [01:02:00] Then there’s a longer email that folks can read if you’re subscribed to the DPS newsletter, but I think this went out to all parents right as we started recording. I know Vernon went to all, or close to all, of the meetings. I went to two of them. Rob, I saw DCTA members strong at those meetings. Some of them were wearing their shirts. What are your thoughts on this, after all that work?
Rob Gould: Yeah, so… no, I mean…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Nothing changes.
Rob Gould: So what was interesting, I said this to the board just last week, those engagement meetings, that was a good start, right? [01:03:00] The public should be hearing what was said at those meetings, number one, and they should be thinking about that further, and we should have additional engagement meetings, right? Like, what is the plan? I wanna know what the plan is. I wanna know what their thoughts are, right? How do you solve for schools like Manual that have five other high schools around them, right? Is that the most efficient way to do it? I don’t know. Or does it support kids the most? Maybe that’s the answer to it, right? But I think that’s where we need to have conversations about this and really figure it out. Now, we joined with Movimiento Poder, but also the Latino Education Council, and we said, “Hey, everybody, you need to slow down,” because we were hearing about the fact that they were maybe thinking about closing schools next year. It’s like, whoa. Just right around the corner, in December, you’ve got school choice stuff coming up, right? And so they’ve got to get all that information out to people. And changing something that quickly, that’s a lot of burden for parents to really understand quickly. [01:04:00] So I think that’s where we support the slowdown of that, ’cause let’s make sure and get it right. Now… let’s not slow down too much, ’cause we do need to figure these things out. It hasn’t been done for, what is it, 37, 40… years?
Alan Gottlieb: Since I was covering DPS in the mid-1990s for The Denver Post.
Rob Gould: Right, right.
Vernon Jones Jr.: When he was a young lad. The 1900s.
Alan Gottlieb: That’s right.
Vernon Jones Jr.: The 1900s. He was a young lad. Yeah, I will just add this really quick, Alexis. I think that we have to become a district that does not make decisions that are disjointed from a strategic roadmap, and so that requires you to have a strategic roadmap, because then your decisions are aligned with where we want to go. I appreciate the fact that they did not make a rushed decision, but what I will tell families is that it did not say that we would not have schools that would be closed because of operational reasons. There is a caveat within policy that allows the superintendent to step in, and I have said this before, I believe that there are places where he should step in and say, “We are not serving kids well there. We do not have the resources there. We are supplementing too heavily at certain schools, and that money could be put in other places.” [01:05:00] There are places where I do think he should step in and still make those calls. But again, I think to Rob’s point, you should already be having conversations with those communities, both the superintendent and the board and staff, because you have that data already, right? You know that.
Alan Gottlieb: And another piece of this, I think, Vernon and Rob and Alexis, is that news came out this week that the district’s enrollment dropped by more than projected, right? Quite a bit more. I think 1,800 kids or something. Yeah, 1,700, 1,800 kids. Great piece by Melanie Asmar.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Go read that article from Melanie at Chalkbeat.
Alan Gottlieb: So to me, if you were to make decisions about boundaries this year, and then you had to close schools, you would probably have to go back and redraw boundaries again, which makes absolutely no sense. [01:06:00]
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Correct. That’s the part that’s really frustrating to me, in having conversations with folks at community meetings. That was beneath the surface, and why that wasn’t part of the conversation leading into that… They had their projections. They knew that difficult decisions about closures and consolidations needed to happen, and I really appreciate the board members that are… And I don’t know, I had to leave the board meeting early. Did they end up consolidating 18 and 19, or are they still voting on…
Rob Gould: They’re gonna look at that next month, yeah.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Thank you. And so as they were consolidating 18 and 19, going through this process, they knew they needed to bring those together, and kudos to the board members who showed up to the meetings and mentioned those things. I will note the superintendent didn’t go to a single community meeting. Board members showed up in strong numbers. But why that wasn’t part of…
Vernon Jones Jr.: Because those were board engagement meetings, Alexis.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: This is where Vern and I did get in a deep fight and debate. [01:07:00] The security officers had to get involved at Northfield in the vestibule. I won. I won.
Vernon Jones Jr.: I bet there were some interesting ones, for sure. I won.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I won. Yeah, Amy Klein Molk was there. She’d be, like, getting between the two of us. So why aren’t we having these discussions? At Northfield, at the table I was at, people were speculating wildly, and I just was like, “This isn’t based in fact.” And they’re like, “Well, we don’t know what is, like, based in fact,” and so people were creating stories based on rumor because there was nothing to respond to. That’s what Rob was saying. And that came up in the meetings I went to, where because there was nothing to respond to, people went to, like, the lowest common denominator or to fear, and not showing up is, I think, the best version of community that we could have showed up as.
Vernon Jones Jr.: That’s why the strategic roadmap is the priority document, why a clear vision from the board is the priority document, because then you keep a district from operating in chaos and fear. Right now, to your point, Alexis, that’s what’s winning the day, is fear, speculation, chaos, because we are not all clear about where we’re going. [01:08:00] Now, once we get clear about where we’re going, then the decisions that we need to make will start to make sense. Come on. Rob Gould and I just agreed on this podcast on at least four things. So, people, if that can happen, it’s possible.
Rob Gould: I counted three and a half, but you’re right.
Vernon Jones Jr.: It’s…
Alan Gottlieb: A rounding error.
Rob Gould: Yeah, it’s a rounding error.
Alan Gottlieb: All right. You guys, we’ve gone over an hour, which is great. I think people will actually listen to this ’cause it’s been a really interesting conversation, wide-ranging, and really people have been honest, so I appreciate that. Any final word from anybody? Because if not, I think we will sign off.
Vernon Jones Jr.: Vote yes on 4A.
Rob Gould: Yeah, I was gonna say, vote yes on 4A and NN, and hey, while you’re at it, if you’re not making a million dollars, vote yes for 87.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: And if you are making a million dollars, do it for the kids.
Rob Gould: That’s right.
Alan Gottlieb: Yeah, don’t hold your breath, Alexis. [01:09:00] All right. Thanks, everybody. All right.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Thank you.
