Thirteen people have applied for a one-year vacancy on the Denver school board created by the resignation last month of central-Denver representative DJ Torres. On this podcast episode, longtime District 3 resident and DPS parent and advocate Heather Lamm discusses with co-hosts Alexis Menocal Harrigan and Alan Gottlieb the candidates and what the board needs in and from its new member.
Full episode transcript
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Board Hawk Podcast. We are so excited to be joined today by Heather Lamm. Heather is a marketing and revenue executive who has built high-performing organizations in the software, media, and education sectors. She was formerly the chief marketing, advocacy, and communications officer at DSST Public Schools.
She began her career working for the US Senate on fiscal policy, and subsequently held leadership roles in marketing and media firms. She also founded and led her own professional services company, serving multiple publicly held software and media clients. She holds an MBA from the Kellogg School of Management and a BA from Brown, is a lifelong Denverite, and has served on various boards, including the DSST board and the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.
We’ve also invited Heather not only because she’s a longtime friend to Alan and I, but also because she is a District 3 resident in [00:01:00] Cheesman Park, and she’s one of the few people in the district not running for the vacancy. There’s 13 of them, if you haven’t heard. So we asked Heather to join us to talk about her reactions as a resident in the district and get her take on what’s going on with the school board.
Welcome, Heather.
Heather Lamm: Thanks, Alexis. Thanks, Alan, for having me. Excited to talk with you guys.
Alan Gottlieb: And it’s great to have you on because we know, like when we have had Theresa Peña on, that you’re not gonna pull any punches, and that really makes for great podcasting.
Heather Lamm: I will not pull any punches. I have nothing to gain and nothing to lose, so…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Awesome. Well, why don’t we go ahead and get started with the first question before we get into the applicants. What was your reaction when you heard that Dr. DJ Torres resigned from the board?
Heather Lamm: I was stunned. With kind of the scuttlebutt of what was happening between some of the other board members, I would not have been surprised if Amy or Monica had resigned.
But it was an interesting move by DJ less than a year in. I thought it [00:02:00] was disappointing, but boy, it’s so clear that the toxicity of this board continues. While I can be disappointed, I kind of am like, it’s a lot for somebody to deal with that kind of strife and anger and dysfunction that continues to be the hallmark characteristic of the DPS board and has been for the last seven years, which I think is attributable directly to Superintendent Marrero and the current board leadership.
So on the one hand, I was disappointed that he couldn’t fulfill his public service, which he clearly worked very hard to win, and on the other hand, I kind of am like, I don’t blame you. If you don’t have the stomach for that, then maybe you should be giving it over to somebody else.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yep. Thank you.
Alan Gottlieb: So we’ve got 13 people who have decided to put their [00:03:00] hats in the ring. We’re not gonna talk about all 13 of them in detail, but Alexis did a really good job of kind of dividing them into five basic categories.
There are a couple of people currently working as educators in DPS, I think. There are four people who probably primarily just identify themselves as parents as candidates for this opening. By the way, it’s not an election. It will be a vote of the school board, just to make it clear.
We’ve got three people who have run for the board before, including two who were just in the District 3 race last November. We’ve got three people who you might primarily identify as foundation or nonprofit people. And then you’ve got someone who was formerly a fairly senior DPS central administrator.
So that’s kind of what we’ve got in terms of the division. What’s your overall sense, Heather, of the candidate pool? [00:04:00]
Heather Lamm: I’m surprised how many there are, and I hope that some of these folks will consider running in future elections, because the number of people who have wanted to run for the school board in the last several years has been relatively low.
I’m kind of wondering, like, where were all of these people three years ago when there was some real effort to try to bring up a number of potential board candidates? Overall, my feeling is I think this board needs somebody who is not in any particular interest’s pocket.
The things that I’m looking for in this board member would be somebody who is independent from the current DPS situation, independent from the DCTA, and has a strong voice. The person who fills this role needs to be able to stand up to the leadership of this board and needs to be able to stand up to the [00:05:00] superintendent, and it’s very clear that that has not been an easy task for many of the current members.
Because, again, very transparently, I think that the board has been going in the wrong direction in the last several years, just in terms of their lack of focus on kids and their unbelievable ability to just have dysfunction and kind of inner working fighting with these political factions.
So I think we need somebody who can be a real independent voice and who is strong enough and doesn’t have the history or any of the baggage. Certain DPS employees may feel scared to stand up to the superintendent. I don’t know. I don’t know any of these people.
If they don’t, that’s great, but I think we need people with a very strong backbone who bring no particular interest other than the interest of Denver kids to the table.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: That’s great. Thanks, Heather. So [00:06:00] why don’t we just jump into some of these folks, and we can go profile by profile.
And I wanna back up a little bit. Thank you, Alan, for the shout-out on how I categorized these. I also wanna just put a disclaimer. All of these folks likely have some intersectional identities outside of what we’re categorizing them as. I was just looking at them all at face value, and if you had to put, like, their number one profile identifier, this is what I was thinking.
For example, some people sit in both categories but are maybe more well-known in one. So with that in mind, let’s start with the two educators that are applying. One is named Pete Fay. Based on what I was able to find, he is a DPS library services coordinator. And then we have James Foglio, who is also an educator, working at Two Roads Charter School in Arvada.
With Pete, it says library services coordinator. I don’t know if that means he works in the central office supporting librarians across the [00:07:00] district or if he’s in a specific school, so that’s just an unknown factor. But both of them obviously have experience working in classrooms and working with students.
So, having somebody coming in with an educator background, maybe exclusively, and we don’t know if they do or don’t have other experience outside of being educators, what are the pros and cons with that? I’ll reserve my own opinions first, but would love for you all to share.
Heather Lamm: Yeah. And listen, I wanna give these folks the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know them and don’t know anything about where they stand. But I do know a lot about board governance, and I know about the experience it’s going to take to help heal and correct the governance of this board.
And just at face value, I’m not sure either of these gentlemen have that experience of dealing with a highly conflicted board, and not just the personal clashes that go on. There’s a real, I think, crisis of philosophy at DPS about what the role of the board [00:08:00] is, and the whole policy governance, and that needs to be really thought through and part of this agenda so that the board can get back on track doing what it is supposed to be doing, which is evaluating the strategic direction of the district and evaluating and holding accountable the superintendent.
And that takes, I believe, somebody that has a little bit more background in governance, and in board governance in particular, and has dealt with highly conflicted boards, to be able to be successful.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: It’s interesting you say that, and I agree. As we get further down this list, I think you’ll start seeing people with increasingly more of those qualifications as well.
Heather Lamm: Mm-hmm.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: So the next group of people are four parents. One is Erin Phelan, P-H-E-L-A-N. She did community engagement work for the district, but she also seems to have been a parent within DPS, at least at one point in time.
The next is Dr. David Scudmore. He was a parent [00:09:00] of three kids who attended DPS all through grades K through 12. And what’s really interesting that I found out is he actually sent his kids to a mix of different types of school models: traditional neighborhood schools, charter schools, magnet schools.
So he’s seen all the portfolio models within the district. All of his kids graduated from East. He is a volunteer cross-country coach over at East, and according to my other friend, who also happens to be a doctor and works at Children’s Hospital, he is a phenomenal physician and leader at Children’s Hospital.
So that’s a little bit about David. Emily Buse and Shannon Carson are also DPS parents, active either in their CSCs or the PTA or PTO. So my two cents: being a parent, having that experience and understanding what’s happening in schools, is really helpful. But going back to your point, Heather, unless we know more about these individuals in their professional capacities, it’s hard to know.
So for example, David Scudmore, as a doctor, I’m sure he has to deal [00:10:00] with high-stress and high-anxiety situations. How that translates into governance, I don’t yet know, and hopefully through the community engagement process and other things we’ll learn about their professional backgrounds as well.
I believe Melanie and other reporters are probably querying the applications, so hopefully those will come out soon.
Heather Lamm: Yeah. I think that would be great if they do come out, because first of all, kudos to all of these folks who are putting their hat in the ring.
People don’t do this for the money. They don’t do it for the glory, so kudos to everybody who’s putting their hat in the ring and trying to help and be a public servant. And I’m with you, Alexis. Some of these folks could be great. We just don’t know, right?
Being a parent does not qualify you to be on the board. Being a very concerned, active parent does not qualify you to be on the board. A lot of other things do, and we don’t know enough about these folks to know what is their main reason for throwing their hat in the ring.
What’s kind of the framework that they think about board governance under, and the direction of DPS? [00:11:00] So I think that’ll be really important for that to come out. But more than anything, I say kudos to these parents, and even if it doesn’t work out this time, get ’em to stay.
I hope that they will stay involved, because obviously these folks care enough about the direction of the district and are presumably trying to maybe fix some of the problems with DPS. I think it would be really great to see more people really care about it.
Alan Gottlieb: One of the concerns I have is the community forum, the way it’s set up and the length of time it’s gonna be with 13 candidates. I sure hope the board does a deep dive into these applications and figures out a way to get more information on these candidates, because that forum is just not gonna give the public or anybody else much of an idea.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Mm-hmm.
Heather Lamm: Well, and let’s be honest, is this board even looking? Have they already decided? What I really worry about is they’ve already drawn their lines in the sand, probably with the hand of Marrero, at least for some of those candidates.
And I think you’re right, Alan. [00:12:00] I hope that they do some real investigating and give people a chance. I am cynical enough to unfortunately think that that’s not gonna be authentic in any way, but we’ll see.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Unfortunately, this is not a meritocracy.
Heather Lamm: No, it isn’t.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: It’s politics at the end of the day, in the same way school board elections are. The challenge is that the power that individuals now hold in voting for these people is incredibly important and really high stakes. My biggest fear, and I think we’ll get to this later, is that because this is politics and this is how people operate, I’m really concerned that if there isn’t strong alignment with some of the current board members, we’ll end up in a situation where President Gaitán picks.
Heather Lamm: Yeah. Yep.
Alan Gottlieb: And that happens if they deadlock 3-3. Then she gets to pick, if they can’t come to an agreement.
Heather Lamm: And Alan, how much time do they have to try to come to some sort of coalition? Is it gonna be months and months, or…
Alan Gottlieb: No, they’ve got a [00:13:00] timeline.
Heather Lamm: Okay.
Alan Gottlieb: I should have looked this up before we got on the podcast, but I think if they can’t decide…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: By 60 days.
Alan Gottlieb: It’s 60 days after the resignation. Then she gets to pick.
Heather Lamm: 60 days after the resignation, okay.
Alan Gottlieb: Yeah.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: After the resignation is accepted, but yeah, I think that’s right around Thanksgiving. What’s not clear to me is if they deadlock in a meeting and they still have a couple more days, do they then have a meeting the next day, or do they stay until 2:00 in the morning? How they actually deadlock and close the meeting, I don’t know. So if any board members are listening, please be caffeinated, bring your snacks.
Do not end the meeting unless you all can get to a majority vote. Please do not cede this to one individual. That’s not very democratic. It’s already not a very democratic process to begin with, but here we are.
Heather Lamm: Yeah, absolutely.
Alan Gottlieb: And vote with your hearts and your heads, and don’t succumb to pressure, and don’t let really stupid ideological stuff drive your [00:14:00] decision. I mean, wishful thinking. Do you want to keep going with that list?
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yep, this is where it starts getting a little bit more interesting and exciting. So we also have three former candidates for the District 3 seat: Caron Blanke, Scott Esserman, and Mike DeGuire.
Again, these individuals have also been parents. At least Caron and Scott, I know, have been DPS parents or are DPS parents. Mike, I don’t know as much about him.
Alan Gottlieb: He worked for the district.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Oh, okay. There you go, another intersection. He also worked for the district. But for the purposes of their engagement with DPS, they’re probably most known as former candidates for the school board. What do you think?
Alan Gottlieb: Well, Scott was a board member for four years, so he’s well known for that. And one editorial comment I need to make here is that Mike DeGuire is extreme in his kind of lunatic fringe anti-charter positions that just go so far beyond the mainstream.
It’s like all charter schools are evil conspiracies of the corporate world.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: And conspiracy theories, yeah.
Alan Gottlieb: So I would hope that he is…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I think [00:15:00] Mike DeGuire and Paula Noonan, I know you listen, Paula, they are the Diane Ravitch of the Denver school board, I would say.
Heather Lamm: Yeah. Yeah.
Alan Gottlieb: Without the credibility.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Well, true.
Alan Gottlieb: Without the credibility. Diane at least has some cred.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Fair. Fair.
Heather Lamm: At least she has, like, more than five people reading her stuff.
Alan Gottlieb: Right.
Heather Lamm: We can’t throw those stones, ’cause I don’t know that more than five people listen to the podcast. But no, fair enough.
Alan Gottlieb: More than five people listen to the podcast.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: True, true. But you know, one thing I’ll just say about Mike: I don’t know him well.
I’ve been in spaces with him, and I think we’ve maybe had one conversation over the years. I first learned about him on Twitter. I don’t know if it was X or Twitter at the time. But I came across a post about a Medium article he wrote, and I lost my mind because it was so paternalistic.
I learned a recent term, caucasity. It’s like Caucasian audacity. It’s paternalistic, like, white male privilege. And I’m just gonna read the quote really quick, and [00:16:00] I lost it and I ended up, like, going on a little Twitter fight with this guy. He said in a 2023 Medium article, and this guy’s written a ton:
“The billionaires are smart and strategic in messaging with the nonprofits they fund, thus many people of color join them as they are led to believe that charter schools are paving the way to help Black and brown students become successful.” I went on Twitter so fast and I tagged a bunch of Black and Latino leaders here who have been in education for a long time, basically saying, like, “This guy is claiming that Black and brown people are too stupid to know that they’re being duped by charter schools,” and I was livid, and a bunch of people piled on.
Not long after, he went and edited his Medium post, and if you look at it today, it now reads, “Thus many people join them,” not people of color. So he loves talking about people of color as an older white [00:17:00] gentleman, but he doesn’t actually look at it from their voice, their autonomy.
And so what really pisses me off, and I’m sorry I’m going on a little tirade here, but podcast host privilege, is he doesn’t actually give a shit about the agency of Black and brown parents. He is an institutional protectionist to the nth degree.
Heather Lamm: Yeah, that’s a very good term. That’s a really, really good term.
And I would double down on what you said, Alexis. Mike lacks integrity. The stuff that he puts out there is false in many cases. It is completely, like you said, Alan, out there, wackadoodle conspiracy theories, and it is incredibly patronizing to Black and brown families.
And his time has come and gone. Like, move on, Mike. Really? Nobody should put him in a position of any power over Denver kids, especially given the makeup of the Denver Public Schools at this point, [00:18:00] and how phenomenally successful charters have been at helping the low-income Black and brown kids of this state.
It’s disgusting. He lacks integrity and he shouldn’t be a serious candidate. Shall we continue with Mike or move on to Scott?
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: That’s enough. I think we’ve probably beaten up on Mike enough. Let’s turn it over to Scott. Look, Scott and I very publicly have gone to battle.
I really do appreciate that he has been willing to sit down with me, sit down with Alan. We’ve talked about areas where we both probably could have done better. Similar to Mike, I would say, like, you lost, it’s time to go, and we could maybe make the same argument about Caron here in a second.
But I think the voters very, very clearly made the case that they did not want Scott back in that seat. He did go on Vernon Jones’ podcast, Justice Cast, and I really appreciate Vernon for trying to get [00:19:00] all of the folks on. Alan and I very strongly don’t wanna have all the people on, ’cause that would just be a lot of work.
So huge kudos to Vernon. If you are a board candidate, please reach out to Vernon Jones and try to get on the podcast. But when Scott was on, he said something to the effect of, “Oh, in the first two years I made mistakes. Staff gave me feedback that I had, like, a big ego. In the second two years I did much better.”
And I don’t necessarily fully buy that. I think he’s coming to the realization of things he could’ve done better as he left the board. But I’m not convinced that we’re gonna see a major behavior change. While I do think he is very equity-focused, and unlike Mike, I think he’s a white guy who actually does really care about Black and Latino families in a way that cares about equity.
How we get there, he and I disagree on sometimes, but he doesn’t do it in the same paternalistic way, and I think he actually does walk the walk when it comes to equity work.
Alan Gottlieb: And yeah, I do wanna say this about Scott. I was pretty brutal to him while he [00:20:00] was on the board, and he and I had a sit-down after he got defeated and had a really good talk, and I came to appreciate a lot about him and his position.
I don’t agree with most of his positions, but I think his heart is in the right place. I do think that when you look at his record, one of the things that he has to reconcile, with himself and with the public, is how he really kind of led or helped lead the charge to extend the superintendent’s contract and put these clauses in, like the supermajority needed to remove him, that I think are just very damaging to the district. And so that alone, in my mind, would make it very difficult for me to see him as the best candidate for this position.
Heather Lamm: Yeah. I agree. I would say I think that Scott’s passion for equity is authentic, and I applaud that.
But Scott got just over 6,000 of the 40,000 votes, you know, less than a year ago in this race. He was [00:21:00] part of a board that reached national fame for its dysfunction. To your point, Alan, he led the charge to keep Superintendent Marrero not just there, but bonused, before there were even any real set goals or metrics by which we could evaluate Superintendent Marrero.
He’s conflicted, and we do not need to go backwards on this board. We need to go forward, and Scott Esserman is going backwards. And boy, do I hope the board understands that. He was part of the problem, and I appreciate that he is acknowledging that he learned a lot, but it’s not time to have the rehabilitation Scott Esserman tour here.
We need somebody who is going to move things forward and not get drowned back into the past, which is what will happen with Scott. And so he should not be a serious contender either.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: And the last thing I’ll [00:22:00] say is, unless you’re a podcast pundit, the only people who benefit if Scott and Xochitl end up on a board together are the pundits. The two of them are like oil and water, at least historically. So it’s not good for the board. Like I said, it’s good for political pundits, but it’s not good for the kids, it’s not good for the board.
Heather Lamm: It’s terrible. It’s gonna keep us from focusing on the things that matter, and it’s gonna just continue to drive the personal dysfunction and distrust that we don’t need.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: And then the next person we have who is a former candidate is Caron Blanke, who ran and got the second most votes in that District 3 race last November. DPS parent. Again, intersectional. Also has some background in nonprofit work, specifically in early childhood.
In full transparency, I’ve supported and donated to her campaign in the past. I consider her a friend. So I have my bias, and I think she’d be a phenomenal board member.
Alan Gottlieb: I think it’s… Go ahead, Heather.
Heather Lamm: Go ahead, Alan. No, go ahead.
Alan Gottlieb: I just think it’s interesting that she’s another person [00:23:00] who, as is Scott Esserman, actually, is really kind of deeply embedded in Denver’s Jewish community.
And given all the craziness around what Monica Hunter is alleged to have said, and the things she hasn’t disputed that she said about Amy Klein Molk, there’s one vote there I don’t see happening. I think it’s unlikely, just overall, writ large, that this board is going to vote somebody white into this seat.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: White or Jewish or both.
Alan Gottlieb: Well, in this case, I think both. I hate to say that.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yeah, that’s really sad. As a white Jewish guy, you’re allowed to say it.
Alan Gottlieb: I just sort of feel like I can’t imagine Monica, based on what she’s said… I think if she were to ask Caron the same questions she asked Amy, she’d get a very similar answer, or maybe even a stronger one.
That should not even remotely be an issue in this, but I think in a very progressive city with a very progressive school board, I worry that that’s going to make it hard for her to get the [00:24:00] votes.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I don’t know. You and I have some differing opinions on the Monica stuff, Alan.
To give her the benefit of the doubt, or to play devil’s advocate at least, I see a world where Monica could vote for Caron. I think the bigger challenge that Caron is going to have is she’s considered by some an ed reformer, even though I don’t actually think she has a history of being an ed reformer, so I kind of call BS on that.
And if the DCTA has anything to say about Monica’s vote, I think that is actually more of the reason, not because she’s Jewish or white.
Alan Gottlieb: Yeah. And just to be clear, I think there’s a compelling argument to be made, on a board that already has three white people on it in a district that’s, like, 80% kids of color, that the person appointed to this seat, as was DJ Torres, should be a person of color. I’m not a big identity politics person, but I think it’s not a great look, in a district where there’s such a huge number of kids of color, to have an overwhelmingly white [00:25:00] board.
That’s the way the DPS board used to be. And quick history lesson, that’s a reason they went to district elections. I don’t remember exactly when it happened, but the majority of voters were white, and so white candidates got elected to the board at a time when the district was becoming increasingly kids of color.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: We should try to invite Rosemary Rodriguez on. I know she listens, and I think she has some of that historical context about how they were able to make that transition. Traditionally, you had a Latino serving in that at-large seat and a Black individual serving in that at-large seat, and that’s since changed a lot.
But that would be a really fascinating podcast, to go back and historically talk about the change to the district seats.
Heather Lamm: I think it would be great to get Rosemary on. But I just wanna say one thing. Let’s talk about Caron for her merits, not for her race or for who will or will not vote for her, because I think she deserves to be evaluated like anybody else for whether she could do a good job with this.
And I will say I think she’d be a terrific board member as [00:26:00] well. She did the work, guys. She did the work. She got the vote out. She was 3,000-some-odd votes shy of DJ. She’s put the work in, and I think she should be a very serious candidate. If this board has any respect for democracy and for the people’s will, they should look at the person who came in second.
I think they should look very seriously and very hard at the person who’s put that work in.
Alan Gottlieb: 100%, Heather.
Heather Lamm: Yeah. 100%. And I know you guys aren’t saying otherwise. I just wanna say, like, Caron does have the governance experience. She does have, I think, the backbone.
Despite her tiny stature, she has broad shoulders, and I think has the ability to stand up, and does not have the conflicts that I think a lot of the other folks have when it comes to standing up to the board leadership, standing up to Marrero, and really fighting to get this board back on track.
I think she also has the integrity to do that. So again, full disclosure, Alexis, I supported [00:27:00] her in the last race, too. I think she’d be great. I think there are some other good candidates in this pool as well, and I look forward to hearing more about them. But I just think, regardless of the likelihood, shame on you, board, if you are going to really not evaluate Caron because she’s a white Jewish woman.
Shame on you. She did the work.
Alan Gottlieb: But don’t you think there are some board members who will do that?
Heather Lamm: Oh, absolutely, I think there are some board members who will do that. Yes, you’re right, and shame on them.
Alan Gottlieb: Yeah. Yes.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Shame.
Heather Lamm: That shouldn’t be the criteria.
And again, Caron has put in the work. She did a phenomenal job working with everybody in D3 while she was running. I think she put so much more work in, even than DJ did, to get to know the schools and to get to know the challenges.
She was very upfront about where she was coming in. She didn’t even understand what charters really were, or what the differences were, at the beginning.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I remember that, yeah.
Heather Lamm: So the idea that she’s some kind of crazy reformer…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: It’s not true.
Heather Lamm: She came [00:28:00] into the race…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I agree. I totally agree.
Heather Lamm: But it’s a label.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: It’s a label that’s put on her. I strongly agree that that’s not a fair label to put on her. And the last thing I was gonna say is she, I think, would be a good representative of the entire district, because while she was running in District 3, she actually spent a lot of time talking to people outside of the district.
Heather Lamm: Yeah, she did.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Particularly around some of the closure stuff, ’cause she knows there’s some really difficult conversations that need to happen around closures and consolidations, which likely won’t happen as much in District 3.
Okay. So moving on. Again, intersectionality here. Caron and Scott have both served in nonprofit roles before. Maybe Mike has as well, I don’t know. But the next three people are Barclay Jones, Veronica Figoli Fleischer, and Pat Donovan.
Barclay Jones works at the Chinook Fund, which is a small-to-medium-sized nonprofit/foundation here in town that gives small grants to nonprofits. It tends to lean a little bit more left as far [00:29:00] as funds and foundations go. Veronica Figoli was previously the DPS Foundation CEO, president, executive director. Unclear of the title. And then Pat Donovan was formerly the executive director/CEO of Rooted, which eventually merged with Denver Families.
And maybe we start with Pat. Pat was a former school board member in Eagle County. I did go back and look at an article from that time he sent me, and he was, like, a little tiny baby in the picture. But he did run unopposed. Imagine not running for school board in Denver, and running in a place where you’re unopposed…
Alan Gottlieb: That’s what it’s like most places, actually.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yeah. Or people don’t run, and then you end up with vacancies. And in some places there’s no term limit, so you can be on the board for 30 years. Anyway. All right. I’m gonna stop. Reactions to these three?
Alan Gottlieb: I knew Barclay way back when I worked at [00:30:00] the Piton Foundation. He was at the Denver Foundation.
I don’t know much about his educational philosophy or politics. He’s a solid, good guy. I know that about him. Cares a great deal, was pretty effective in that role. But that’s about all I can say about Barclay. Pat, I know well. I feel like I’m gonna sort of sound like what I said about Caron.
I think that his past with Rooted and Denver Families is definitely gonna give Rob Gould and the people on that side of the world heartburn, and so there’ll probably be some pressure from there on any of the board members that the DCTA has influence over not to vote for him. But he knows his stuff, and he cares, and he’s deeply committed, so he’d be a solid board member.
Heather Lamm: I don’t know Barclay at all, so we’ll definitely give him the benefit of the doubt. No idea if there are any conflicts, or his depth of experience. I really like Pat as a person, and I don’t think he’s the right person for this role. I think he carries the fact that he is a white man very heavily on his shoulder, [00:31:00] and I think that could become a detriment, because I’m not sure he has the backbone to stand up to a Black superintendent and a Hispanic board chair, if we’re gonna talk about race politics. I’m not sure he has the demeanor to be really strong in those circumstances. I do think he cares. I think he has some good experience.
I don’t know that he has the experience of a highly conflicted urban board. He clearly doesn’t. I think Eagle is very different, and running unopposed is very different. But Pat cares. He knows a lot about the sector. But I don’t think he’s the right person in this role at this time.
Alan Gottlieb: Interesting. Thank you.
Heather Lamm: And we haven’t talked about Veronica. I really know and like Veronica. I’ve known her since our kids were small. And she was at the DPS Foundation. What else do we know about Veronica? It’s funny, ’cause I know her as a mom, [00:32:00] but…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Veronica has sat on some pretty major boards here in town.
Heather Lamm: Okay.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: She’s on the board of the Mile High United Way.
Heather Lamm: Oh, that’s right. Mile High United Way.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yep. And the Botanic Gardens. I think she has served on previous large citywide boards as well.
Alan Gottlieb: I think she worked for Piton after I left, too, if I’m not mistaken.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yeah, maybe it had already changed its name to Gary Community Ventures by then.
Alan Gottlieb: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: And then she has spent the last couple of years in national nonprofits doing more microfinance type of work.
Heather Lamm: Okay.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: So as far as understanding governance of major boards, she knows that. I think she’ll be really good at governance, understands metrics and accountability. I think she has been out of the day-to-day DPS stuff for a little while, but has a strong, strong passion for the work, and similar to others we mentioned above, has been a DPS parent, as has Pat.
Again, Barclay, I’m not sure if he has or not. We just don’t know as much about him. The one thing I would push back on with Pat is I actually do think he would stand up, but I think he would do it in a different way [00:33:00] than, let’s say, some of the other people would. I think he would do it more through strategy, through policy, than necessarily standing up to them in the board meeting.
So going back to the meritocracy, if this were a meritocracy, I would say Pat is highly qualified and probably the most knowledgeable on this list of 13 about board policy, how to move things on this board, understanding the historical context of things, because he’s been in roles where he’s had to know and follow the DPS board policies and board meetings closely.
And then I do think it’s probably a count against him that he’s been on many charter school boards in town, including as the chair of Rocky Mountain Prep, which he said he would step down from if appointed. So unfortunately, I adore Pat. I think he’d be a phenomenal board member.
I think he’s coming with a lot of baggage that’s gonna be hard for people to let go of.
Heather Lamm: Yeah. And listen, I think that’s a very fair assessment. I have been looking for the last four years for a wartime general. Pat’s not a [00:34:00] wartime general.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Neither is Jenny Ockels. You know who is? Heather Lamm is a wartime general. Let’s pivot. Heather, why did you not apply? And let me ask this: were you approached to apply?
Heather Lamm: Do we really have to pivot to that?
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: We have to, yeah.
Heather Lamm: Oh, God.
Alan Gottlieb: Well, especially since you don’t want to answer it, the journalist in me is like, “Yeah, that was the right question.”
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Did anybody ask you to apply, or ask if you would consider?
Heather Lamm: Yes.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Okay. And what was your response to that?
Heather Lamm: My very deep personal response, I will just say, is when I really thought hard about what has to go into this work, which I think is incredibly important work, the only emotion I could summon was dread, and no joy. And I’m at a point in my life where I would love to give back in a meaningful way to my community, but it has to come with some joy. That was the emotion that kept coming up, was dread. And I think a really [00:35:00] good leader, a wartime leader, has to have the joy for the battle as well as the skills for the battle.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Fair.
Heather Lamm: And I think I have the skills for the battle, but I think you have to have the joy. I have been embroiled in DPS in so many ways for the last 20 years that I think, sadly, the joy has been sucked out of it for me. So.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yeah. Heather, do you know Marco Abarca by chance?
Heather Lamm: A little bit.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: A little bit. Okay. So in the same way somebody asked you to run, I asked Marco if he would apply, ’cause he lives in the district, and his first response to me was like, “No, I don’t think I should, because my kids didn’t go to DPS. I sent them to private schools.”
And I was like, “I don’t think that disqualifies you.” And then his second response to me was, “I just don’t particularly want to hang out with those people.” Which is such a Marco response.
Heather Lamm: I want to hang out with Marco, because we share that.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: You and Marco would be great wartime consiglieres together.
Alan Gottlieb: And Heather, we have to jump in a few minutes, ’cause I actually have a top-of-the-hour commitment. But I wanted to do [00:36:00] two things. One is I want us all to make our predictions at the end. But right now…
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Really quick, though, we forgot about Sean Precious.
Heather Lamm: Oh, we didn’t really talk about him.
Alan Gottlieb: Oh, okay. Oh, yeah.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: We forgot about Sean Precious. So in the same way Veronica worked for DPS and other people worked for DPS, Sean Precious used to be a regional instructional something-something superintendent. Funny story, he was John Youngquist’s boss when John was at East, and if anybody knows John, you should ask him about what he did when Sean would come and do school visits.
I’ll let him tell that story, but it’s kinda funny. And I’ve known Sean for a really long time, probably as long as I’ve known Veronica, from my times at DPS. Smart guy, strong head on his shoulders. Soft-spoken isn’t the right word. He’s a very measured individual. Smart, thoughtful.
Heather Lamm: I don’t know him at all, but I trust you on that. One other thing I wanted to really quickly say about Veronica: the one thing I do like about Veronica is she knows DPS and has been involved in DPS, but not in the most recent past.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yes.
Heather Lamm: And so she is not [00:37:00] transitioning into this role from having just worked under Marrero or closely with Marrero as part of the DPS Foundation. She has the experience, but has taken a break, and I do like that. I think that’s powerful.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Mm-hmm. And the one thing she and Marrero also have in common is I think both have experienced being a Latino not from the Mexican American or Chicano community here in Denver, and that’s hard.
Alan Gottlieb: She’s Venezuelan, I believe.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: She’s Venezuelan, I think, and also has Italian heritage. I think Figoli is her father, who was Italian, but she was raised in Venezuela. And this is a whole nother podcast if we wanna get into Latino education politics, but I think we as a Latino community are not always welcoming of people who are not from the Southwest or Mexican American, and that’s really unfortunate.
And Veronica’s experienced that. I’ve had friends who experienced that. Alex Marrero has certainly experienced that, and that’s horrible, but at least they have something in common. Okay, so those were the applicants. Thank you all for running through that. Alan, [00:38:00] I’ll turn it over to you. I know you wanna talk about a couple of other things before we wrap.
Alan Gottlieb: Well, I had a quick question for Heather, and then I wanted each of us to make our prediction, ’cause I think that’d be fun. Heather, when you say we need a wartime general, I just wanted you to elaborate on that a little, ’cause I think it’s an interesting concept.
Heather Lamm: I think Marrero needs to go. Anybody who has been in the know enough to see what’s been happening over the last couple of years with Marrero and his contract and his shenanigans out of state and his applying for these jobs, I think Marrero needs to go, and I think we need a consensus.
We need people on the board who are willing to make that happen. We do not have the people on the board, at least not the consensus, that are gonna make that happen, and that is gonna take some serious guts, because even after you get rid of Marrero, you then also have to bring in a new superintendent.
That is why I say it’s a war. I think we need to so fundamentally change what the DPS board looks [00:39:00] like, how they behave and what their focus is, that you’re gonna have to have a really strong person who can come in and do that. And people don’t agree with me on this, but it can’t just be somebody who’s good at consensus.
Good at consensus is one thing, and it’s important in certain circumstances, but we need somebody who is gonna get in there and really fight and not back down. That’s what I mean.
Alan Gottlieb: And we don’t have that personality on the board presently, except Xochitl Gaitán.
Heather Lamm: That’s right. That’s really true, and we need a different kind of fighting.
Alan Gottlieb: Right. So, predictions about who will get the seat.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I’ll start, because while I agree with a lot of what Heather said, I think the Board of Education is not looking for that.
Heather Lamm: I agree.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: The board is looking for somebody who will bring stability, who will help them get beyond the dysfunction. They’re not looking for a big personality. They’re not looking for somebody who’s going to fight. They’re looking for [00:40:00] somebody who cares about good governance, somebody who is gonna make difficult decisions, like around school closures, for example, and somebody who will help bring, not necessarily consensus, but peace.
Do I think that’s what the kids need? No, but I think that’s what this board needs, or the board thinks they need it, so that’s fine. So with that in mind, I think it’s likely going to be somebody who isn’t seen as a political pick and is seen as maybe more of a consensus builder, somebody who has good governance and who is not gonna rock the boat.
And so for that reason, I actually think it might be one of these wild card people. I think it might be David Scudmore. I think it might be Emily or Shannon or Erin, one of the parents. I don’t think it’s gonna be a DPS teacher, unfortunately. If they’ve only been educators and don’t have other experience, it’s gonna be tough, and I’m assuming a lot of these parents have professional resumes that we just don’t have [00:41:00] visibility into.
And I think Caron is another one where, while unfortunately she has the label, I don’t think the board members are labeling her that way. And then Veronica, and this is going a little bit outside of the scope, but I also don’t consider Veronica and Sean reformers, because Sean didn’t work for charter schools.
He worked to support traditional public schools, in the same way Veronica did. They worked in the district to support traditional DPS public schools, but because they worked for Tom Boasberg, Alex Marrero is immediately gonna say, “Oh, well, if they’re for Tom…”
Alan Gottlieb: So Alexis, you’re copping out. You need to give a name.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Ugh. Okay, I’m gonna go with a wild card. I’m gonna go with Erin Phelan.
Heather Lamm: Wow.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I’m just, like, ’cause I think they’re not gonna go with anybody who is gonna make waves.
Heather Lamm: Okay, because we’re two days from Halloween, I’m gonna give you my horror story prediction, which is they deadlock. [00:42:00]
Alan Gottlieb: Mm-hmm.
Heather Lamm: They deadlock.
Alan Gottlieb: And who does Xochitl pick?
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Mike?
Heather Lamm: Mike or Scott.
Alan Gottlieb: Not Scott. I don’t think she would pick Scott.
Heather Lamm: Oh, that’s right, she wouldn’t pick Scott. Then she picks Mike?
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Mike or Barclay.
Heather Lamm: Or maybe Barclay. But I think they deadlock.
My real prediction is they deadlock, which still isn’t answering the question, Alan. And this is not my hope, believe me, not my hope, but I had to predict the horror story because I’ve been let down so many times by DPS.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: And it’s happened before.
Heather Lamm: It’s happened before.
Alan Gottlieb: Yeah. It’s sort of like with the midterms coming up, and it’s like, “Oh, the Democrats are gonna take the House and the Senate.” It’s like, beware.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Alan, your turn.
Alan Gottlieb: I am going to say that I think it’s gonna be Veronica. If there’s not a deadlock, I think she checks enough boxes across the board.
And I don’t know her, so I’m not saying she’s who I want. I’m just saying that she’s got the experience of the DPS Foundation. I don’t think she’s seen as a reformer or a not reformer. She’s a [00:43:00] Latina, and I think that matters, both in reality and for a number of these board members.
So I could see a consensus emerging around her as the most likely of the candidates.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I love that we picked a wild card, a Xochitl pick, and then a more middle-of-the-road, moderate person as well. So good job, us. It could go any way.
Alan Gottlieb: Any which way. Do you all wanna say who you want to have get picked?
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Nope. I sure don’t.
Alan Gottlieb: I refuse. Okay.
Heather Lamm: I’ll take the dare. I would like Caron or Veronica. Again, Caron has put in the work. I do think Veronica has some really good creds as well. That’s what I would like, so I’m happy to say it.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Yep. Alan?
Alan Gottlieb: Okay.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Alan, I think whoever you say, that’s not gonna do them any favors.
Alan Gottlieb: Mike DeGuire. I want Mike DeGuire.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: I would love… Xochitl, Alex, if you’re listening, Mike would be phenomenal. Definitely pick him.
Alan Gottlieb: All right. Well, [00:44:00] that’s it for this time. Thanks, everyone, for listening.
Heather Lamm: Thanks, guys.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Thank you, Heather, appreciate you.
Heather Lamm: Absolutely, it was fun. Next time I’ll clean up my office, since I didn’t know it was video. I thought we were just talking.
Alexis Menocal Harrigan: Oh, you’re good.
Alan Gottlieb: I don’t clean mine up, and I don’t even blur my background. So that’s life. Okay, thanks, everybody. We’ll be back soon. All right, take care.
